Hi hdsentinel
Still using your product and still super satisfied
I am today doing my usuall "hard drives tests" cycle and I've noticed again the "Read + Write + Read" which is interesting in case of refreshing those blocks. I got 2 questions concerning that test:
1) What kind of exact dangers I can encounter? In the description it says that there might be a danger in some cases (power failure, OC etc) but what exactly can happen in that case? Can the whole drive go into failure, or simply a block of data won't be rewritten back to the drive (which was hold in memory) which means one of the files to be possibly broken?
2) Can you elaborate as to what kind of time are we talking about that a drive can go on without actually needing to refresh that data? Is it a year, 3 years, 10 years? What would be your recommendation?
cheers
Lucas
Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
- hdsentinel
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Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Hi Soyo,
Thanks so much for your kind words
> 1) What kind of exact dangers I can encounter? In the description it says that there might be
> a danger in some cases (power failure, OC etc) but what exactly can happen in that case?
> Can the whole drive go into failure, or simply a block of data won't be rewritten back to the
> drive (which was hold in memory) which means one of the files to be possibly broken?
During the "Read + Write + Read" test, Hard Disk Sentinel reads the original data, writes some initialization patterns (*), then write back the original data and then read back again to compare with the original contents.
This way it refreshes both the stored data and also the data-holding capability of the device as the sector is forced to store different values before the original data written back.
(* this extra step is enabled by default, but can be disabled: just before starting the "Read + Write + Read" test, in this window where the test type and device selected, click on Configuration and disable the "Extensive read-write-read test with additional write operation").
In the worst case, the following may happen:
1) power failure / power loss / accidental reset / disconnection: the data in the current sector not written back so then the current file/folder may be corrupted or damaged.
2) in case of instable operation (for example caused by overclocking, physical memory (RAM) problems, but may also happen with improper connections or even data cable) the data may be aletered, corrupted. Then the appropriate block is reported as "Verify error, sector: xxxxx" indicating that while the sector could be written and read, the contents are changed.
No, I can confirm that there is absolutely no risk of complete hard disk failure, hard disk damage or so. In any of the above mentioned worst cases, some problems may be detected reported, for example
- weak sector may be reported due to power loss happening during write operation in case 1 (when the drive powered ON again)
- data communication issues may be reported due to the instable operation in case 2
but usually these can be fixed and does not really indicate hard disk problems at all, more likely related to the operating environment.
> 2) Can you elaborate as to what kind of time are we talking about that a drive can go on without
> actually needing to refresh that data? Is it a year, 3 years, 10 years? What would be your recommendation?
Generally, the "Read + Write + Read" test to refresh the stored data designed for flash based devices: memory cards, pendrives, SSDs as they may not be able to hold the stored data for unlimited time. SSDs while powered, periodically re-write the data to eliminate this effect, but this may not happen with memory cards, pendrives.
Such devices may perform slower and slower, previously stored data may be harder to access (random disk read errors, retries, random disconnects may happen) and in this case, the "Read + Write + Read" test is a good way to improve the performance of the device (it can refresh memory cards/pendrives/SSDs to perform like new ones) and also to improve the usability of the device in general, especially because of the above mentioned additional write operaton, which forces the actual sector to store different kind of data, not only what was there previously.
In theory, hard disks (generally magnetic data storage) can hold data for unlimited time, so it may not require this function at all - except if you see the above symptoms: random errors, lower performance (eg. in a Disk -> Surface test -> Read test) and so.
In normal conditions, when the hard disk performs correctly, to reveal possible problems (or confirm that things are fine, the hard disk works as should), I'd more recommend the use of different tests (Disk menu -> Short self test, Extended self test - even frequently eg. once per week) and if there is any problem, Disk menu -> Surface test -> Read test to reveal the problems.
Personally I use "Read + Write + Read" test on flash devices mostly, I rarely use on hard disks (eg. once per 2-3 years or so) - but of course it can be used as well on hard disks (even more frequently).
Thanks so much for your kind words
> 1) What kind of exact dangers I can encounter? In the description it says that there might be
> a danger in some cases (power failure, OC etc) but what exactly can happen in that case?
> Can the whole drive go into failure, or simply a block of data won't be rewritten back to the
> drive (which was hold in memory) which means one of the files to be possibly broken?
During the "Read + Write + Read" test, Hard Disk Sentinel reads the original data, writes some initialization patterns (*), then write back the original data and then read back again to compare with the original contents.
This way it refreshes both the stored data and also the data-holding capability of the device as the sector is forced to store different values before the original data written back.
(* this extra step is enabled by default, but can be disabled: just before starting the "Read + Write + Read" test, in this window where the test type and device selected, click on Configuration and disable the "Extensive read-write-read test with additional write operation").
In the worst case, the following may happen:
1) power failure / power loss / accidental reset / disconnection: the data in the current sector not written back so then the current file/folder may be corrupted or damaged.
2) in case of instable operation (for example caused by overclocking, physical memory (RAM) problems, but may also happen with improper connections or even data cable) the data may be aletered, corrupted. Then the appropriate block is reported as "Verify error, sector: xxxxx" indicating that while the sector could be written and read, the contents are changed.
No, I can confirm that there is absolutely no risk of complete hard disk failure, hard disk damage or so. In any of the above mentioned worst cases, some problems may be detected reported, for example
- weak sector may be reported due to power loss happening during write operation in case 1 (when the drive powered ON again)
- data communication issues may be reported due to the instable operation in case 2
but usually these can be fixed and does not really indicate hard disk problems at all, more likely related to the operating environment.
> 2) Can you elaborate as to what kind of time are we talking about that a drive can go on without
> actually needing to refresh that data? Is it a year, 3 years, 10 years? What would be your recommendation?
Generally, the "Read + Write + Read" test to refresh the stored data designed for flash based devices: memory cards, pendrives, SSDs as they may not be able to hold the stored data for unlimited time. SSDs while powered, periodically re-write the data to eliminate this effect, but this may not happen with memory cards, pendrives.
Such devices may perform slower and slower, previously stored data may be harder to access (random disk read errors, retries, random disconnects may happen) and in this case, the "Read + Write + Read" test is a good way to improve the performance of the device (it can refresh memory cards/pendrives/SSDs to perform like new ones) and also to improve the usability of the device in general, especially because of the above mentioned additional write operaton, which forces the actual sector to store different kind of data, not only what was there previously.
In theory, hard disks (generally magnetic data storage) can hold data for unlimited time, so it may not require this function at all - except if you see the above symptoms: random errors, lower performance (eg. in a Disk -> Surface test -> Read test) and so.
In normal conditions, when the hard disk performs correctly, to reveal possible problems (or confirm that things are fine, the hard disk works as should), I'd more recommend the use of different tests (Disk menu -> Short self test, Extended self test - even frequently eg. once per week) and if there is any problem, Disk menu -> Surface test -> Read test to reveal the problems.
Personally I use "Read + Write + Read" test on flash devices mostly, I rarely use on hard disks (eg. once per 2-3 years or so) - but of course it can be used as well on hard disks (even more frequently).
Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Thanks a lot for detailed response!
Sorry that I didn't mention it in my question, but it was in relation to HDD ofcourse and I asked about it because I heard that magneticaly stored data tends to fade away over time (since it's magnetic). So I can store it theoreticaly for 10-20 years and if the HDD is working correctly the data should be fine?
Also if I can to ask 1 silly question? If the HDD is in no need to refresh those data, why do you do that test every 2-3 years?
cheers
Lucas
Sorry that I didn't mention it in my question, but it was in relation to HDD ofcourse and I asked about it because I heard that magneticaly stored data tends to fade away over time (since it's magnetic). So I can store it theoreticaly for 10-20 years and if the HDD is working correctly the data should be fine?
Also if I can to ask 1 silly question? If the HDD is in no need to refresh those data, why do you do that test every 2-3 years?
cheers
Lucas
- hdsentinel
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3127
- Joined: 2008.07.27. 17:00
- Location: Hungary
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Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Yes, as I read your words, I know you are asked about using this test on hard disks - just wanted to describe that the refresh type test is more designed, more usable for flash based devices.
> I heard that magneticaly stored data tends to fade away over time (since it's magnetic)
No, this is not really correct. The magnetically stored data remains (do not fade away) exactly because it's magnetic.
I mean working, perfect drive of course, without damages, without problems with the disk surface / heads.
It is possible that the hard disk may not be able to properly read/write the data, for example
- if the head / surface damaged
- the head position adjusted due to mechanical shock/vibration
- due to insufficient / unreliable power source, it can't create the proper magnetic field on the disk surface
etc...
(or can't read back previously stored data) but generally the data should remain there, even for years.
In contrast, flash based devices (when they're not powered ON, does not perform periodic refresh) may not be able to hold data for such long time: the charge "flashed" in the memory cell will really fade away with time.
So yes, in theory even for 10-20 years (or more) a stored perfectly working hard disk (considering that the environment conditions are fine, there is no excessive heat, magnetic field, humidity, no earthquake etc...) can retain the data, without problems - and even without slowness.
> Also if I can to ask 1 silly question? If the HDD is in no need to refresh those data, why do you do that test every 2-3 years?
To be honest, I was thinking lots, but do not remember when I last used the data refresh test on any of the hard disks actually used to store important data
On hard disks I'm using, I use the other tests periodically: Hard Disk Sentinel Pro configured to perform extended self test on all drives weekly - and other hard disks periodically re-connected and re-tested with Disk -> Surface test -> Read test).
For diagnostic / testing purposes (for example when received suspicious, problematic hard disks from different sources), yes, I use it, to determine possible problems. For example exactly when wanted to diagnose some problems and possible damages of write circuit of a hard disk head: I encountered that the drive performs slower but only on certain, periodic areas, see image:
(sorry for the Hungarian language on the image, the test image saved with that more than 3 years ago).
> I heard that magneticaly stored data tends to fade away over time (since it's magnetic)
No, this is not really correct. The magnetically stored data remains (do not fade away) exactly because it's magnetic.
I mean working, perfect drive of course, without damages, without problems with the disk surface / heads.
It is possible that the hard disk may not be able to properly read/write the data, for example
- if the head / surface damaged
- the head position adjusted due to mechanical shock/vibration
- due to insufficient / unreliable power source, it can't create the proper magnetic field on the disk surface
etc...
(or can't read back previously stored data) but generally the data should remain there, even for years.
In contrast, flash based devices (when they're not powered ON, does not perform periodic refresh) may not be able to hold data for such long time: the charge "flashed" in the memory cell will really fade away with time.
So yes, in theory even for 10-20 years (or more) a stored perfectly working hard disk (considering that the environment conditions are fine, there is no excessive heat, magnetic field, humidity, no earthquake etc...) can retain the data, without problems - and even without slowness.
> Also if I can to ask 1 silly question? If the HDD is in no need to refresh those data, why do you do that test every 2-3 years?
To be honest, I was thinking lots, but do not remember when I last used the data refresh test on any of the hard disks actually used to store important data
On hard disks I'm using, I use the other tests periodically: Hard Disk Sentinel Pro configured to perform extended self test on all drives weekly - and other hard disks periodically re-connected and re-tested with Disk -> Surface test -> Read test).
For diagnostic / testing purposes (for example when received suspicious, problematic hard disks from different sources), yes, I use it, to determine possible problems. For example exactly when wanted to diagnose some problems and possible damages of write circuit of a hard disk head: I encountered that the drive performs slower but only on certain, periodic areas, see image:
(sorry for the Hungarian language on the image, the test image saved with that more than 3 years ago).
Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Awsome. Thanks a lot for detailed response. I won't lie to you that I trust more in your knoledge than what I read on the forums, hence me buying a license of your software years ago
One last tiny question (sorry for off topic). If I get a big spikes (like from 122 - 229) of Ultra CRC Error count during and after Surface Read Test (in SSD - Samsung 840 Pro to be exact), this means there might be some problems with the cables, or connectors?
cheers
Lucas
One last tiny question (sorry for off topic). If I get a big spikes (like from 122 - 229) of Ultra CRC Error count during and after Surface Read Test (in SSD - Samsung 840 Pro to be exact), this means there might be some problems with the cables, or connectors?
cheers
Lucas
- hdsentinel
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3127
- Joined: 2008.07.27. 17:00
- Location: Hungary
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Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Yes: in most cases, changes of the Ultra CRC Error count attribute indicates problems with the cables, connections.
Generally, Support -> Knowledge Base -> Hard Disk Cases -> Hard disk case: communication errors page
( http://www.hdsentinel.com/hard_disk_cas ... _error.php ) describes this and also some possible other causes (generic system instability, system overheat, overclocking, power source, etc.)
Generally, Support -> Knowledge Base -> Hard Disk Cases -> Hard disk case: communication errors page
( http://www.hdsentinel.com/hard_disk_cas ... _error.php ) describes this and also some possible other causes (generic system instability, system overheat, overclocking, power source, etc.)
Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Thank you, I guess that's it
cheers
Lucas
cheers
Lucas
Re: Read + Write + Read surface test. The exact danger?
Hi hdsentinel
I bought a new ASUS Sata cable, and redid the surface test (usually 1 surface read test triggered 100 errors or so) and so far so good. Thanks, seems your application is flawless
cheers
Lucas
I bought a new ASUS Sata cable, and redid the surface test (usually 1 surface read test triggered 100 errors or so) and so far so good. Thanks, seems your application is flawless
cheers
Lucas